Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pope, Tennessee

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. — CactusWriter ^(talk) 00:35, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pope, Tennessee

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Fails WP:GNG, as far as I can tell, fails WP:NPLACE. I couldn't find any other mentions of the place online. GMH Melbourne (talk) 13:10, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: United States of America and Tennessee. GMH Melbourne (talk) 13:10, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Found Quite a Bit of Sources Showing that this is infact a community, it has a Chapel, a Cemetary, & a Post Office. It Is also shown on many maps.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] 😎😎PaulGamerBoy360😎😎 (talk) 13:59, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for finding those sources. Still, as far as I can tell, none of those provide WP:SIGCOV of the location. GMH Melbourne (talk) 14:02, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep -- WP:GEOLAND. Central and Adams (talk) 15:32, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please elaborate because GEOLAND says it ison a case-by-case basis in accordance with the GNG. — GMH Melbourne (talk) 15:58, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're quoting the part of GEOLAND for not-legally-recognized places. This place is legally recognized, being listed in the USGS GNIS, so per the first GEOLAND criterion it's presumed notable, nothing about case-by-case consideration. Central and Adams (talk) 16:06, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is false, the GNIS is just a database of names that have appeared on maps. Consensus has found that it is not legal recognition and does not establish notability for a stand-alone article. Also see WP:GNIS. Reywas92^Talk 20:40, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's also on USGS maps and it has a fire department. This is being legally recognized.Central and Adams (talk) 21:32, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't legal recognition either, the USGS map just list it because it's in GNIS. GNIS is deemed unreliable by the Wikipedia community. Plenty of places that are not legally recognized have fire departments, so no on that too. James.folsom (talk) 23:02, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Legal recognition means that a government acknowledges that it exists. Only governments create fire departments. The act of creating a fire department is legal recognition. Central and Adams (talk) 23:29, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are utterly incorrect on that point. In fact, community organized volunteer fire departments came first. Depending on the laws of the area, thee is governmental regulation and coordination, but they do not necessarily create fire departments. Mangoe (talk) 02:36, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, there are volunteer fire departments but they are sanctioned and authorized by government. There's no such thing as a non government-authorized fire department. This must be the case because fire departments need powers beyond those of private citizens, e.g. to break into houses. Such powers can only be granted by government. And if a fire department is authorized for a place by government then clearly the government recognizes the existence of that place. Central and Adams (talk) 03:33, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 19:05, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Well I don't know what it is. It's old though. All the sources for this are not very reliable, and I've found nothing that describes it.James.folsom (talk) 23:24, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep -- This is a legally recognized community, I don't know why this was even nominated in the first place. MemeGod ._. (talk) 11:45, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

● Keep - Per the Sources I Listed Above, and per the statement made by @Central and Adams. 😎😎PaulGamerBoy360😎😎 (talk) 13:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Recognized unincorporated community. Reliable coverage shows that it is listed beyond just the GNIS, in that it has a recognized fire department, formerly had a school, is listed on census enumeration maps, and a USGS quadrangle is named after it. Needs expansion, but it hits the bare minimum for places notability. I see no need to AFD or draftify...it's okay to be a stub for the time being until it's expanded.nf utvol (talk) 02:06, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, lots of WP:NOTINHERITED going on here. The claims above about the fire department are supposition, and I don't think they have always been true, not to say that thee is any evidence that they are true now. I've looked at the histories of various FDs around here, and I find no evidence they had to be approved back when most of them were founded in the 1920s. They had to be chartered as non-profit corporations, but that's a different matter. I can't find any information about the Pope VFD other than its address and that they have at least one truck; in particular there's no history. And like the firehouse, a school is not a settlement; they were not necessarily sited in towns. We've been over GNIS, and looking at the census map: well, where do you think they got their information from? Labels on maps simply do not cut it as an authority; that's one of the ways we got into the GNIS mess.

The problem is that you're focusing on things that towns often have, but which can be anywhere. We need direct testimony to a town, better than passing references because those have proven unreliable. Mangoe (talk) 18:56, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is some level of recency bias in arguing against the inclusion of this community...it isn't very important now, it barely exists, but that was not always the case. We have here an unincorporated community that, at some point in its past, has had a post office, a school, and a fire department, all public services serving this community and named after it. The standard you're applying here would effectively preclude most, if not all, unincorporated communities from being included in Wikipedia.

Regarding the VFD, there isn't much out there (no official site other than a Facebook page), but it is listed in the State of Tennessee's fire departments database (one of four volunteer departments in the county), as well as being the recipient of FEMA grants in the past. It's clearly more than just a chartered non-profit organization. And if we were trying to say that Pope as it currently exists is notable because of the VFD then that would be a NOTINHERITED issue, but we're using the existence of the VFD to show at least some level of governmental recognition of the unincorporated community.

I agree that the GNIS is, as you noted, not in and of itself establishment of noteworthiness, nor is inclusion in maps. Both maps and the GNIS can only verify that the place does, in fact, exist. This is an established and accepted rule on establishing notability that should not have been even mentioned above. The naming of a USGS quadrangle after that place is only a little more notable than just a passing dot on a map, but it does suggest some level of noteworthiness beyond just 'it is.' nf utvol (talk) 01:37, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.