Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Dvorichna

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge‎ to Battle of the Svatove–Kreminna line. Liz Read! Talk! 01:15, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Battle of Dvorichna

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Battle of Dvorichna (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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I think it is better for us to include all articles in the Svatove-Kreminna area into one single article. In other areas we've gotten messy articles such as Battles of Bohorodychne and Krasnopillia and Battles of the Donetsk suburbs. Also, this article is pretty short, the battle part only covers three paragraphs that can be easily integrated into Battle of the Svatove–Kreminna line. I also follow invasion news and there haven't been many reports of intense fighting at Dvorichna, these are minor skirmishes. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 08:24, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. The battles in the body of the page are just the Russian capture of Dvorichne in the spring, and the skirmishes in Dvorichna are half-plagiarized from ISW sources or talking about unrelated battles across the frontline and claimed goals of Russian forces. The sourcing for the skirmishes in Dvorichna should be moved to the Svatove-Kreminna line page. Jebiguess (talk) 22:22, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree for several reasons. Here, for example, The Battle of Orihiv was deleted last year because your colleagues had the same opinion as you regarding this article. They even deleted the blueprint (Draft: Battle of Orihiv). I can't think of spending time on Orihiv again until Russian forces go on a counteroffensive, and only if the Ukrainian counteroffensive launched on June 4 fails. If there was a theoretical battle for the city itself (as some colleagues pointed out), then it could be considered that the Russians never approached the city and therefore the battle for that city never existed. But, since there was a strong front that was consolidated on March 8 of last year, and if my article at the time was corrected to the Battle of the Orihiv Front, then on June 11 of this year, Ukraine would be considered to have won that battle. , which is one of the smaller successes for the entire war, but for part of this current Ukrainian counteroffensive, it is certainly a victory that pushed the Russian forces ten kilometers to the south and thus the front was moved to the first Russian defense line near the town of Rabotyno, which the Ukrainian forces have not yet reached arrived. Orihiv is certainly not a topic anymore, but we should focus on the cities and places where a strong front was formed on both sides, and that is certainly Dvorična (on the Kupijanska direction). What is much more important for this small place is that it is the first landing of the Russian army across the Oskil River, from where they were completely pushed to the left bank by the Ukrainian Kharkiv counter-offensive in September of last year, where a strong Russian defense line of Svatove-Kremin was formed fifteen kilometers east. What happened on June 1 of this year is that the second line of Ukrainian defense on the Svatove-Kreminna line was breached, and for the first time since September of last year, fighting is again taking place on the right side of the Oskil River with the aim of cutting the supply line between Kharkiv and Kupyansk , as well as to encircle the Ukrainian forces on the left bank of the Oskil River and completely destroy them on the Svatovo-Kremina line, and of course to create the conditions for an attack on the strategically important city of Kupyansk from that direction, because if that city falls, all Ukrainian successes in Kharkov counter-offensives will be nullified. Another reason why I attach importance to the battles for this small town of Dvorichna is that the Ukrainians fiercely defend that town and have an extremely strong defense line, the collapse of which would give the Russians an opportunity for a wider penetration to the west towards Kharkov and in the south towards Izjum, which were lost last autumn without much fighting and fatal escape. I hope you understood me from the examiner's article. I will propose to open some new articles for new battles for very important and strategic places like;
  • Battle of Torske
  • Battle of Krasnogorovka
  • Battle of Pyatihatki
The place of Torske is not a small town at all, and especially not a village. On July 11, Russian forces broke through the Ukrainian defense line and occupied some eastern parts of that city. Any place where there is a line of contact and where tens of thousands of soldiers have fallen on both sides is worth a separate article unless there is a battle for a large city near it, such as Klescheyevka and Kurdiumovka, which are part of the battle for Bakhmut, and those two small places do not have room for a separate article. Belohorivka is a very important place that divides Donetsk and Lugansk regions, it is located between the two strategically important cities of Siversk (controlled by Ukrainian forces) and Lysichinsk (controlled by Russian forces) and of course it is located across the Donets River, where the the great battle near the Svatovo-Kremina line. Baba Mica (talk) 22:37, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You created a page for the battle of the city of Dvorichna. This deletion discussion is stating that despite known fighting in Dvorichna, there is so little sourcing and knowledge about the situation that it doesn't merit it's own article. Going on a spiel about previous unrelated pages about battles in Orikhiv, Torske, and P'yatykhatky doesn't aid your point at all, it's just a description of the war in Ukraine since June and how everything vaguely connects. I also keep track of the war, and I have since the bulk of the invasion in February 2022 - there's no need to bring up other frontlines, much less other towns.
Even if the known target of Russian forces is Kupiansk, unless you can find a reliable source stating "the objective of the Russian forces in the battle of Dvorichna is to reach Kupiansk", then it cannot be stated in the article. Your sources, all ISW, mention there is fighting in Dvorichna on several occasions, but do not show evidence of a single, continued battle with noteworthy results. This is why the fighting in Dvorichna is relegated to the Svatove-Kreminna line page - the battle in Dvorichna is no more or less significant than the battles in Novoselivske-Kuzemivka, Chervonopopivka, and other places along the line. Maybe the battle will become more important years from now, but that will be when the battle ends and survivors, witnesses, and governmental organizations publish more information about it. For now, there is so little information to merit an independent article, much less one describing it as a continued clash like Bakhmut, Marinka, or Avdiivka instead of a series of skirmishes and occasional frontal assaults that's part of a frontline-wide occurrence. Jebiguess (talk) 04:51, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, I had very little time to look for more detailed sources. However, you could have at least made a draft like Battle of Vuhledar, Battle of Orihiv (which was deleted before, and I had a lot of background material and preludes), but you didn't, which is not OK. You can arrange that very easily and help me and we will monitor whether the place of Dvorichna will have the role of the new Soledar, and Kupiansk the role of the new Bahmut. Secondly, those two cities are connected by the umbilical cord and the central vein by the river Oskil and they are located outside the Svatovo-Kreminna line. Similarly, the Bakhmutka River connects the cities of Soledar and Bakhmut, just as the Donets River connects the town of Bilohorivka with the city of Siversk. Soledar was an outpost and fortress that was the defense of Bahmut. Bilohorivka is a strong Ukrainian fortress in the defense of the city of Siversk and a springboard for the attack on the city of Lysychinsk. Avdeevka, Piski, Marinka, Vodianoe and since July 17 Krasnohorivka are strong fortresses for the defense of Kurakhovo or for the attack on Donetsk. Vuhledar is a strong fortress in the defense of Kurakhovo from the south and a springboard for the attack on Mariupol from the north and Volnovaha from the west. New York is a strong fortress in the defense of Toreck and Konstantyaniivka. The place of Popasnaya was an outpost and a central point of resistance in the defense of the city of Sieverodonetsk. All isolated points where major battles take place with a large concentration of military forces and equipment deserve attention and a separate article, especially the longer the battle lasts and the more people die, the more significant that place is. The difference between the town of Dvorichna and the town of Dvorichne is that they are on two different banks of the river Oskil and the town of Dvorichne is that the Russians took this place on the left side as part of the Battle of the Svatove-Kreminna line on May 15 as part of their winter-spring counter-offensive. As for the town of Dvorichna on the right side of the Oskol River, the Russian landing parties landed successfully on June 1, unlike the disaster on the Donets River near Bilohorivka in May of last year where they suffered a disaster and terrible losses. The Russians are entrenched in that small area of 4km on the right bank of the Oskil River and until the Ukrainian forces destroy them or drive them back to the place of Dvorichne on the left bank, it means that the battle is going on because both twitter and telegram channels on both sides claim that the Russians are attacking the place of Dvorichna by land from the south and landing from the east. Another thing is that the media from the Ukrainian, Russian and Anglo-Saxon sides are silent and pay little attention to the fighting near this place because the Ukrainian summer counter-offensive, the Wagner Group Rebellion and the NATO summit in Vilnius totally blinded the world's attention. If something radical does not happen in the north of the front, the article should by no means be deleted, but a draft should be made and contours left for further continuation, which will depend on the development of the situation. The Russians really stepped up their attacks on that front after the NATO summit and especially after the Ukrainian successes on the southern flanks of Bakhmut. As for sources from ISW, of course I will use their sources as relevant because they follow the front minute by minute. Who should I use if not them? What I skipped because I didn't have time were the Ukrainian and Russian sources, and for that I need a perfect knowledge of the Cyrillic alphabet. Baba Mica (talk) 14:21, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Now let me turn to the article Battle of Krasnopilia and Bogorodichnoe. That battle was extremely important above all for the Ukrainian army because that battle was the door to perhaps the main objective of the Russian army, which is the strategically important city and military center of Sloviansk. The battle was absolutely frontal and the fact that these two small places are geographically and demographically small does not detract from their military importance from a strategic point of view. The front near Krasnopolia and Bogorodichnoe served the Ukrainians just enough to defend the gates of Sloviansk, which is only 15-20 km from those two places. And for the battles in those two places, you have many more sources than for the Battle of Dvorichna, because I followed the events day by day, hour by hour, since the summer of last year, because then everything seemed that after the Battle of Lysychinsk, the Russians would go full force to finally break through the strong Ukrainian defense line at these two small and well-fortified places to begin the Battle of Sloviansk. However, the Russians began to relax and send their army on vacation, thus underestimating Ukraine's real strength while the Ukrainians heavily armed themselves and mobilized multiple times. The Russians were hit hard on the fronts near Dovhenka (Kharkov Oblast) and Krasnopilia and Bogorodichnoe (Donetsk Oblast) by the Ukrainian breakthrough near Balakleya, which started the great Ukrainian Kharkov counter-offensive on September 6, which broke the Russian partial siege of Sloviansk from the north. From the positional battles at those two places, the Russian pressure on Sloviansk during the 9th and 10th of September broke up with a panicked flight towards the town of Liman. The Ukrainian victory at those two places will certainly be among their greatest victories in this war, regardless of what its final outcome will be, because it was at that location that they stopped a much stronger enemy in the defense of Sloviansk. Last year, from April to July, battles were fought for many larger places with the aim of putting pressure on Sloviansk (Kreminna, Liman, Izhyum and Svyatogorsk) and they all fell like pears into Russian hands and very easily, but those two villages held their own and they were convenient for the defense of Sloviansk just enough to buy three months from June 7 to September 6 for the Ukrainians to arm themselves, train and send additional reinforcements, which happened. The siege was broken, and the enemy was pushed back over 100 km to the east. Let me look back once more at the place of Dvorichna (on the right bank of the river Oskil and not on the line Svatove-Kreminna) and the place of Dvorchne (on the left bank of the river Oskil and located on the line Svatove-Kreminna). They are not the same place, but they have a similar name. The place of Dvorichne was occupied by Russian forces back in May of this year after the start of their semi-counteroffensive on January 27. By moving to the right bank of the Oskil River on June 1, Russian forces broke through the Ukrainian defense line and began the first combat operations (at least positional battles) on the other side of the bank. Otherwise, I was very hesitant to write an article related to this small place, which before the Russian invasion of Ukraine demographically had more inhabitants than, say, Marinka near Donetsk, for which heavy fighting has been going on for a year and a half without stopping and it was literally burned and leveled with earth. Will the town of Dvorichna (in the Kupiansk reon) have the same role and fate as the towns of Marinka, Avdeevka, Soledar and Vuhledar (in the Donetsk region), Popasnaya (in the Luhansk region) and Pyatikhatka (in the Zaporizhia region) and will be razed to the ground in severe fighting will either play the role of the villages of Dovhenke, Krasnopilia and Bogorodichnoe and be the line of defense of Kupiansk, Izhyum and Kharkiv or will be surrendered without major battles to the Russians like the initial Russian captures at the beginning of the war of Russian surrender in Kherson and Kharkiv last fall, time will tell. Of course, those geographically and demographically small places can never be as important as the cities of Sieverodonetsk Lisichinsk, Sieversk, Bakhmut and Mariupol, but that does not mean that they have no military-strategic importance in this war. What will happen if the place of Dvorichna is taken by the Russians? Do you think I will stop there and not go to Kupiansk, Izhyum and Kharkiv? That I will again spend hours and hours staring at the screen and looking for sources again and creating a new article as you did to me with Vuhledar several times until the Russians finally launched a zero general assault on the city on January 24th? Believe me it doesn't cross my mind. But I certainly will not forget the importance of places like Krasnohorivka (in Donetsk region), Pyatihatka and Staromayorskoye (in Zaporizhia region) and Torske (in Luhansk region) because they are all extremely important places where the issue of the Ukrainian summer counter-offensive in the south and the Russian winter counter-offensive emerges in the north of the 800 km long front. — Baba Mica (talk) 00:22, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, Baba Mica, but no one is going to read these walls of text to try to understand what you are arguing for. Please try to make a concise argument based on Wikipedia policy. Liz Read! Talk! 06:13, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Star Mississippi 01:39, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • delete per WP:NOTNEWS. This obsession with recording every little element of the war as if it were Gettysburg or D-Day or Operation Market Garden is war correspondent writing, and not encyclopedic. Mangoe (talk) 02:23, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Merge partially into the Svatove-Kremmina line phase as per HappyWith. Jebiguess (talk) 22:59, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge the notable, verifiable information back into Battle of the Svatove–Kreminna line per nom. I'd like to note that the Svatove-Kreminna line article had (and maybe still has) severe issues with verifiability and taking liberties with what the sources - usually ISW reports - actually said, and this article has very similar writing mannerisms. If there is a merge, I'd recommend to the merging editor to check over the claims to make sure they aren't copying over unverified stuff. HappyWith (talk) 20:36, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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