Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Akash Ambani (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Opinion is divided between redirect and keep, and I can't assign either side's arguments more weight. Sandstein 12:12, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Akash Ambani

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Akash Ambani (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Subject does not meet WP:GNG because there is a clear lack of coverage about this subject that would be rid of his father or family per WP:NOTINHERITED.

The subject still fails WP:BUSINESSPERSONOUTCOME because he is a chairman of Reliance JIO now but it is not in Fortune 500 companies. Srijanx22 (talk) 03:27, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Businesspeople and India. Shellwood (talk) 08:50, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep passes WP:GNG the subject has received coverage particularly after he became the chairman of Reliance JIO India's largest telecom company and one of the most important corporate positions in India.It is the third largest mobile network operator in the world.Note the coverage listed below about the subject is due to the fact he is the Chairman of Reliance JIO not because of his being Mukesh Ambani's son and hence WP:NOTINHERITED does not apply here.Further How one becomes Chairman or President or director is not a concern as far notability is concerned Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 12:02, 19 July 2022 (UTC) — Note to closing admin: Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk • contribs) is the creator of the page that is the subject of this AfD. [reply]

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It could pass GNG only if the subject received coverage other than being the son of a rich person or serving in his company because with these aspects, the subject is directly inheriting notability from the actual notable subject. Your sources, mainly read like paid news showing poor re-writing skills and with similar headlines like "Know About Akash Ambani". Rest of your argument is also meaningless and does not serve as a rebuttal to nomination. What do you even meant from "largest telecom company"? Do you mean we should be also having article on chairman of the "largest mango seller" even if the subject lacks coverage outside as the son of a rich person? Why you are ignoring the requirement of WP:BUSINESSPERSONOUTCOME? >>> Extorc.talk 11:28, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect to Mukesh Ambani: Agree with the nominator, all the coverage is due to his father's business. Lack of individual achievement or major work. Whatever little info is there about him can be covered in Mukesh Ambani#Family. Venkat TL (talk) 15:48, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Coverage is because he is the chairman of Reliance JIO India's largest telecom company which is a notable achievement .I have listed 10 articles and do more about the subject which clearly makes him pass WP:GNG.Note coverage is above due to the fact he is the Chairman of JIO not because he is Mukesh Ambani's sonPharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 16:10, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Clearly we disagree but in my opinion, being appointed the head of a company by father who owns the group of companies is not an achievement. Articles above are tabloid type and covered because he is the son of Ambani. Please wait until some individual achievement. Can be recreated later. Venkat TL (talk) 16:43, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete and redirect - From the sources mentioned above I only see that there is a richest person (Mukesh Ambani) of India (1.3 billion population) who is building up a career for his son (the subject of AfD) by appointing him as chairman of a company (Jio) he had founded. This violates WP:INHERITED and the subject is not meeting GNG. Orientls (talk) 17:10, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  WP:INHERITED is not about literal inheritance, such as we see here. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:27, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Read again, I specifically noted "From the sources mentioned above" that Akash Ambani has zero independent reliable sources talking about him without significantly talking about his father and father's business. Orientls (talk) 08:17, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment The chairmanship of third largest mobile network operator in the world is notable. How one becomes Chairman or President or director is not a concern as far notability is concerned and WP:NOTINHERITED does not apply here. There are adequate references for the information with WP:RS sources like The Economic Times .NDTV,Financial Times ,South China Morning Post ,India Today ,The Hindu Business Line,Business Standard with articles about the subject is clearly notable.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 17:36, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Overall, the provided coverage violates WP:NOTINHERITED due to lack of sources providing coverage to Akash Ambani for anything on his own and same was the case in the earlier AfD. Stop acting baffled and accept the policy. >>> Extorc.talk 11:28, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Reliance Jio is world’s largest telecom operator with 340 million subscribers (ref: https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/info-tech/reliance-jio-is-the-worlds-largest-telecom-operator-with-340-million-subscribers/article28996616.ece) Chairman of Jio is definitely notable. Also, the subject has received coverage in secondary sources. Proton Dental (talk) 18:15, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• This argument was already tried on earlier AfD and was rejected, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Akash Ambani. The subject has not received any coverage in "secondary sources" that wouldn't violate WP:NOTINHERITED.>>> Extorc.talk 11:28, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

During the previous AFD he was not Chairman of Jio with 340 million subscribers now he is.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 23:19, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Still does not meet WP:BUSINESSPERSONOUTCOME, so the argument is still the same. Just moving one step ahead in life isn't enough. >>> Extorc.talk 13:22, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect again. The coverage happened because of his father and there are no sources that provide him coverage for something of his own. Shashank5988 (talk) 10:54, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep He holds chairmanship of an organization with largest subscriber base in India, WP:NOTINHERITED not applicable here.Shankar2001 (talk) 14:51, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to know what made this account !vote here after inactivity of over 3 months and repeating same argument by the creator (Pharaoh of the Wizards) which already failed in the earlier AfD. >>> Extorc.talk 11:28, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you believe something was inappropriate, this is not the forum to make the claim. Buffs (talk) 15:32, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree with Delete and redirecting to father's page. KSAWikipedian (talk) 16:34, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete and redirect to Mukesh Ambani. The sources have clearly provided coverage because of his father's notability and there is no coverage about him that would be rid from that of his father. desmay (talk) 22:15, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

*Keep Chairmanship of Reliance Jio world’s largest telecom operator makes Akash Ambani notable.Sources listed by Pharaoh shows it passes WP:GNG.WP:NOTINHERITED does not apply is not about literal inheritance . 93.189.6.34 (talk) 00:41, 24 July 2022 (UTC) Blocked proxy IP[reply]

I would like to know what made this IP !vote here by throwing a strawman after inactivity of over 18 months and using not only same argument as the creator of the article (Pharaoh of the Wizards) but also using same writing skills as Pharaoh of the Wizards. >>> Extorc.talk 11:28, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The IP editor has voted in 3 unreleated AFDs 1 , 2 Not just this one they are allowed to vote.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 23:19, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Now why you are throwing strawman? I never said that the IP hasn't voted in any other AfD but came back after an inactivity of over 18 months. >>> Extorc.talk 13:22, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you are alleging misdeeds, this is not the forum. IP addresses change all the time. Buffs (talk) 15:33, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Static web proxy. I have reported it on noticeboard. CharlesWain (talk) 05:41, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete I see that failure of WP:BUSINESSPERSONOUTCOME has been wholly ignored by those voting to keep the article, but it is not something that needs to be ignored at all. The subject fails both WP:BUSINESSPERSONOUTCOME and WP:NOTINHERITED. >>> Extorc.talk 13:22, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: There is a basic disagreement here between editors who disregard all coverage as violating WP:NOTINHERITED and those who believe it is legitimate and provides coverage of this individual that passes WP:GNG. Please judge the sourcing based on its qualitiy and whether it is in-depth and not make assumptions on whether or not it paid coverage unless there is evidence of paid editing. Maybe another week will help bring this discussion to some consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:53, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - I'm a tad confused by this nomination and the arguments made for deletion. I totally get that notability is not inherited. IE: The child of a famous actor does not meet notability standards merely due to the notability of its parent. However, I do not think sources that are largely about the parent, but also have coverage of the child, contravene NOTINHERITED. Sure, BUSINESSOUTCOME is not met. That is not really relevant to this discussion as an argument for deletion. It simply notes that notability is usually found to exist when one is head of a F500 or FTSE100 company. If the subject had no coverage, then perhaps this would be relevant, but he does. There is an article in GQ. The coverage in this Forbes piece is not negated merely because the headline has Mukesh Ambani in it. There is still coverage within this article that is more than trivial of Akash. There is an article dedicated to Akash Ambani in the Economic Times of India here. There are countless other hits of significant coverage from independent, secondary, reliable sources. Hence he clearly meets WP:GNG. I'm not seeing any evidence of paid editing either. I do a lot of work in the "articles with a promotional tone" category, and puff pieces are typically a lot longer than this with buckets of fluff. The article needs expansion, and from the sources located there is enough to write at least a start class article about his early life, education, involvement with family affairs etc. Much of this coverage only came up a month ago - and so I have no doubt as he continues to manage and takeover family affairs the coverage will grow and so too will the article. MaxnaCarta (talk) 06:45, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GQ introduces the subject as "Akash Ambani is the eldest son of Mukesh and Nita Ambani".

This introduces the subject as "but Indian billionaire Mukesh Ambani has commenced the handover at age 65..... His eldest son Akash Ambani, 30, took over as chairman".

Here, the source introduces the subject as "Mukesh Ambani, announced his resignation from Reliance Jio’s Board on 28th June 2022. Following his resignation, Mukesh passed on the baton of his thriving telecom business to his son Akash Ambani."

And you wonder how WP:NOTINHERITED is violated. It is exactly violated.

Good you admit that WP:BUSINESSOUTCOME is not met, but "GNG" is being wrongly cited by you and some others. With the definition of "GNG" that has been provided here, we will need an article about Estere and Stella (kids of Madonna) who received million times more coverage than Akash Ambani. Orientls (talk) 08:49, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That is not the spirit of NOTINHERITED. The guideline is designed to ensure that non-notable people do not have their own article merely because they’re associated with a notable subject. A person who dates Tom Cruise is not suddenly notable merely due to their association with him. However if there is significant coverage the notability is met. I am not incorrectly citing anything. The GQ article is not invalidated as a source merely because his father is in the first paragraph. Three more go on to discuss the subject. The subject meets the general notability guideline which stipulates assumed notability where there is significant coverage in multiple appropriate sources. I’ve produced three sources above. The guideline is hence met and my submission stands. BUSINESSOUTCOME is not even a notability guideline. It’s a common AFD result. MaxnaCarta (talk) 12:32, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If it had been someone unrelated who had been referred to in those articles in the same way rather than the former chairman's son would you have invoked WP:NOTINHERITED? As far as that guideline goes "inheritance" in the Wikipedia sense would be just the same. The fact that this article is about someone's son is irrelevant. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:44, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect to Mukesh Ambani: as many have stated, all the coverage that exists about this topic is directly because of their relation to Mukesh Ambani, and it should therefore be included at that page. ––FormalDude talk 00:52, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm not denying that the guy is notable because of his father, and that is why the coverage is there.

  From WP:NOTINHERITED: "The fact of having a famous relative is not, in and of itself, sufficient to justify an independent article. Individuals in close, personal relationships with famous people (including politicians) can have an independent article even if they are known solely for such a relationship, but only if they pass WP:GNG". So, if the only claim to notability was that Akash worked with his famous father, but no coverage existed on Akash that could be used to write a verifiable article, then he is not notable merely because of his familial relationship to someone notable. However, policy does not, anywhere, state that merely because a subject has become notable due to a notable parent, that subject is hence unable to meet WP:GNG. If the coverage was merely trivial, a passing mention that the father had a son, I would not be arguing for keep. But there is substantial and significant coverage discussing the article subject at length. He therefore passes GNG. MaxnaCarta (talk) 00:21, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  WP:PAGEDECIDE states that even notable topics may not be best presented in a standalone article, and I believe that is the case here, being that all the sources are in the context of his relationship to Ambani. ––FormalDude talk 01:28, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect to Mukesh Ambani per arguments above. Azuredivay (talk) 12:39, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep While the articles mention the fact that he is his father's son, that does not invalidate the articles. He's the CEO of a major telecom in India. How he got there is irrelevant and such an argument falls on deaf ears given the coverage and notability. Given his lineage, it's likely that every article will mention it. Buffs (talk) 15:36, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• The coverage mainly relies on the fact he is son of Mukesh Ambani and that totally invalidates the subject's notability per WP:NOTINHERITED. He is not a "CEO" and there is no article on Mukesh Ambani that mentions Dhirubhai Ambani. Your argument is totally misleading. CharlesWain (talk) 05:41, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I've provided a fairly indepth explanation of why the coverage does not fall under WP:NOTINHERITED. "The guideline is designed to ensure that non-notable people do not have their own article merely because they’re associated with a notable subject. A person who dates Tom Cruise is not suddenly notable merely due to their association with him. However if there is significant coverage the notability is met. I am not incorrectly citing anything. The GQ article is not invalidated as a source merely because his father is in the first paragraph. Three more go on to discuss the subject. The subject meets the general notability guideline which stipulates assumed notability where there is significant coverage in multiple appropriate sources. I’ve produced three sources above. MaxnaCarta (talk) 08:10, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

They still don't justify stand alone article. I support redirecting as it would still allow creation in future if necessary. CharlesWain (talk) 10:42, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect to Mukesh Ambani Even if the opposing argument is accepted then still there is nothing to note about him other than him being a chairman of Reliance JIO. I agree that per WP:NOPAGE, he is still far from having his own page. ArvindPalaskar (talk) 06:04, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep MaxnaCarta has the strongest arguments here by far. This subject is clearly notable based on the way he is treated by the Indian media. For example, the Economic Times covering his wedding in detail? The South China Morning Post doing an in-depth profile on him? The Times of India, India's largest circulation English language newspaper, with over 13 million readers, printing an article about how Akash was featured on Forbes' 40 under 40? This is clearly a major national celebrity, and the fact that it is probably almost exclusively due to his father's wealth does nothing to change that. Chagropango (talk) 11:16, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.