Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/山州 (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎: withdrawn by nominator. (non-admin closure) NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 05:59, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

山州

山州 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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This page has only one valid entry per MOS:DABRED and should be redirected to Yamashiro Province per WP:PRIMARYRED. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 08:42, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 08:42, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions. Cunard (talk) 11:04, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. Cunard (talk) 11:04, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: Pinging Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/山州 participants and closer: Primium (talk · contribs), Bkonrad (talk · contribs), Folly Mox (talk · contribs), and Hey man im josh (talk · contribs). Cunard (talk) 11:04, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Not exactly "Bad AfD" level, but the nominator clearly didn't click through to any of the "See also" links, all of which are 山州. See Special:Diff/1183937267. Folly Mox (talk) 11:25, 7 November 2023 (UTC) oh also Speedy Keep and didn't we just do this.[reply]

  Of course I did. It's you who clearly don't understand the relationship between Chinese characters and their transliteration. The only entry in Sanshu transliterated from 山州 is exactly Yamashiro Province. And the only entry in Shan Prefecture transliterated from 山州 was a red link I just removed per WP:DABRED here. As for Shanzhou, it's obviously transliterated from 陕州 as opposed to 山州. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 11:56, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Good revert. You're right: I read them in my head without the tones, and edited while too sleepy to think clearly again. Folly Mox (talk) 12:16, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Besides, the format you used in Special:Diff/1183937267 assigned Yamashiro Province with the primary topic per MOS:DAB, in which case 山州 should still be redirected to Yamashiro Province. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 12:11, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Keep: seems clear that if there is no disambiguation to be done, this page is not needed. But someone has found a second reading of 山州, so there is disambiguation to be done. But all the other irrelevant stuff should be deleted. Imaginatorium (talk) 09:29, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep (and reinstate the removed information) - MOS:DABRED isn't for removing information, it's for removing red links in disambiguation pages. "Unlink the entry word but still keep a blue link in the description. Red links should not be the only link in a given entry; link also to an existing article, so that a reader [...] will have somewhere to navigate to for additional information. The linked article should contain some meaningful information about the term." -- Primium (talk) 16:14, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Can you cite the information that you think should belong, and its relationship to the article title, viz. 山州 ? There is a rationale for having redirects in WP:en for Chinese characters, in particular that a reader of Japanese (for example, like me) can look up a placename in China, without knowing the Chinese reading of the characters. But I can see no purpose in having links from one set of Chinese characters to a different set of Chinese characters. In the Sanshu disambiguation page there are two items including 山州: one goes to the actual article Yamashiro Province, the other comes back to this disambiguation page. Imaginatorium (talk) 16:27, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  MOS:DABRED clarifies the condition under which the entry of non-extant article could be kept, while doesn't mean that it has to. Will you insert the red link to an article to give it a related blue link even if the entry is added for spamming? NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 23:49, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep I created Shān Prefecture, which is discussed extensively in this source:
  1. Tang, Ren (1829). 慶遠府(廣西)志: 20卷, 卷首 : 1卷 [Chronicles of Qingyuan Prefecture (Guangxi): 20 volumes, first volume: 1 volume] (in Chinese). Retrieved 2023-11-12 – via Google Books.
  There are now two topics that "山州" can refer to:
  1. Yamashiro Province, abbreviated name was following Sanshū (山州), province of Japan located in what is today Kyoto Prefecture
  2. Shān Prefecture, a prefecture between the 6th and 7th centuries in modern Thanh Hóa, Vietnam and Guangxi, China
  Cunard (talk) 11:24, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:40, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• It's good to validate a entry from creation of a stub. It remains to decide if the proposed target could be the primary topic, in which condition WP:ONEOTHER applies and a hatnote at the top of Yamashiro Province will suffice to replace this dab page. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 10:53, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  How would a hatnote work? It seems to me that while redirects from Chinese characters (山州 in this case) are useful, a hatnote would be unnecessarily confusing to the ordinary reader, who would not recognise this reference to a rare variant name. Better to have a redirect page. Imaginatorium (talk) 14:52, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm fine with either way after creation of the stub. Now that you prefer keeping the disambiguation page, I'm withdrawing my nomination, as all the votes here are keep now. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 05:58, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Unfortunately, I don't see any development of this discussion since the last relisting. Right now, it looks like No consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:54, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• (moving this below the line...) Keep: But someone has found a second reading of 山州, so there is disambiguation to be done. But all the other irrelevant stuff should be deleted. Imaginatorium (talk) 14:54, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.