Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive950

Last month I posed a question on Adam (Wiki Ed)'s talk page and got no response. Nor have any of the students & instructors who have left queries since 29 December. Nonetheless his account is still churning out welcome messages (around 8500 in the last 15 months) which don't vary, and haven't been interrupted by any signs of human activity in some time.

I also see no other interpretation than that Adam is running an unauthorised, unattended bot.

He's not responding on his personal page either.

If Adam's no longer responding perhaps another account should be doing the welcoming? The present situation does no favours to WikiEd, Wikipedia, the students, or the instructors. Cabayi (talk) 08:29, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Entirely agreed - @Adam (Wiki Ed): please respond here at your earliest convenience, as I can't help to agree that it appears you're running an unauthorised bot. Although we don't really have much say as to the services Wiki Ed supplies I do think perhaps the welcoming aspect of it could be improved somewhat -- There'sNoTime ^{(to explain)} 08:44, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Pinging Protonk, the personal account, since I mentioned it. Cabayi (talk) 08:57, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Note, this task would generally not be approved even for a bot, see Wikipedia:Bots/Frequently_denied_bots#Welcome_bot. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:20, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

At 19:14, 3 March 2017 (within that one minute timestamp), the account welcomed 40 different editors. Many of the timestamps seem to occur at roughly the same times, suggesting an automated program running on a set schedule. There's been no activity outside user talk from this account for a while and no response to inquiries about these welcome messages. It seems extremely likely that this account is being run as an unauthorized bot, so I'm blocking it until the human editor returns and explains what's going on. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 16:39, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Technicalz isn't my dept., clearly; but isn't there a way of finding out what's actually being run on 'our own' site? Wouldn't it have to run from a subpage? or because it's open source, can it just run from a home PC and not be embedded? But that 19:14 timestamp seems to clinch it- one every 1.5 seconds?! — O Fortuna! ^{Imperatrix mundi.} 16:45, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

@Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi: No bots run on our site. They run off some other site, server, or computer and interface with Wikipedia. There's no way to tell whether something is automated or not except via behavior, at least not in a way that has no false positives and can't be gotten around. The closest we get to running something on our own site is Tool Labs, but even that's really another site that the WMF just provides. Most bots don't use that. For example, my own bot uses AWB and runs entirely off my personal computer. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 21:19, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

@BU Rob13: Thanks very much for the information. Interesting stuff. I understand now, cheers. — O Fortuna! ^{Imperatrix mundi.} 21:33, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

• note, Adam's account has been blocked which at least stops the ongoing botting Jytdog (talk) 18:57, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Ian (Wiki Ed) has taken up Adam's welcoming workload using the same bot. He has at least been interacting with students on his talk page. (Ping Guettarda, his alternate account) Cabayi (talk) 09:02, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

• I have pinged User:Ragesoss / User:Sage (Wiki Ed), long time Wikipedian, Wiki Edu employee and product manager there. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 15:14, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Hi! Part of the Wiki Ed support system for classes is that User:Ian (Wiki Ed) and User:Adam (Wiki Ed) provide support for student editors. The welcome messages get posted (automatically) to the talk pages of users soon after they enroll in the class, by whichever Wiki Ed staff member is supporting that class. Adam has been intermittently sick for the last couple of weeks. We generally have someone else help out when someone is out sick, but these talk page messages slipped through the cracks.

The welcoming of users is something we previously did manually, but switched it to be automatically done by the dashboard at some point. I didn't think of this welcoming feature as a 'bot', separately from the general OAuth approval system, which is why I did not go through the bot approval process at the time that feature was added. I can do so if folks think that's necessary.

I will follow up in more detail later today. In the short term, I've removed the 'greeter' flag from Adam's account (but not Ian's), so the dashboard won't make any further welcome edits on his behalf.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 16:29, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

@Sage (Wiki Ed): I think it would be useful if you could clarify whether the dashboard makes these welcoming edits automatically, or if the user (i.e. Ian or Adam) have to manually approve each welcome. If it's the former, then that would fall under using a non-bot account as an unapproved bot. Bot Policy requires that a separate account be used, and that it be approved before running. If each welcome is being sent manually, and simply being sent from the interface, there shouldn't be a problem. Sam Walton (talk) 18:37, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

User:Samwalton9: at the level of individual user welcomes, it's automatic. The manually approval happens at the level of a course, but once the course itself is approved, the welcome messages are automatic for each new user that joins the course.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 18:56, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Welcome messages disabled

I've disabled the automatic welcome messages from Ian as well now. It would be pretty simple to convert it to a dashboard-assisted manual welcome, but that seems pretty pointless since we want to make sure every Wiki Ed student editor gets a welcome ping from the person supporting their class, and the sooner after joining the class they get it, the better. I'll put up a BAG submission soon.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 20:42, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

BRFA is up: Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Wiki Ed Dashboard student greetings.

User:Cabayi: Thank you for opening this discussion. It pointed out a hole in Wiki Ed's support procedures that we'll figure out how to patch, for when staff have unexpected time AFK.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 00:00, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

For clarity: the BRFA has been withdrawn (with automatic welcome messages still disabled). --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:14, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Dashboard

(may be related to the above?)

Question: is the WikiEdu Dashboard ( https://dashboard.wikiedu.org/ ) considered a bot? And if so, has it been approved by en.wikipedia bot-related approval processes?

I bring this up while there has been a problem that from that dashboard en.wikipedia pages can be updated (overriding any content that is on the page) without the dashboard editor being responsive to in-Wikipedia user talk page or project talk page comments by concerned in-Wikipedia editors. Example:

• affected project page: Wikipedia:Wiki Ed/University of North Carolina School of the Arts/History of Musical Styles I and II (Fall 2015, Spring 2016)
• unresponsiveness of dashboard operators demonstrated at (among other pages) User talk:Dr.renMueller and Wikipedia talk:Wiki Ed/University of North Carolina School of the Arts/History of Musical Styles I and II (Fall 2015, Spring 2016) (and related Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music/Archive 64#Student articles)
• follow-up discussion at User talk:Ian (Wiki Ed)/Archive 5#Re. "Removing"

Although nothing much happened any more since last year in this example it got stuck in my head as an unresolved issue. Possibly I lost my cool somewhere along the line, but what I remember is that there was a pile of cleanup after the project had passed through Wikipedia – and, frustratingly, no way to contact the people messing up. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:57, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

I would call it an alternate editing interface. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 15:00, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

BTW. I think that it is rather strange that WikiEdu asks people to edit something in the dashboard, and then doesn't even allow sysops to actually do so on their pages... That's definitely something that should be rectified. It's not the wikiway. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 15:09, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Re. "I would call it an alternate editing interface" – yeah, so is AWB I suppose... the question is not whether it is an alternative interface (it is, no doubt about that), but whether it is a bot, and if so, whether it went through due process.

The worrying aspect (as I saw it in the experience described above) is that you can ping a dashboard editor, or write on their Wikipedia user talk page or on the talk page of the project as much as you like, none of these messages go through to the "alternative interface" (so the editor there ignores it all, not even knowing a concern has been raised). Thus these dashboard editors continue editing Wikipedia via that interface without being aware about any concern voiced through Wikipedia's usual channels. In that sense it is bot-like: it steam-rolls whatever concern and overwrites Wikipedia content automatically with whatever the Dashboard sends out. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:09, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

In as much as it allows Wikipedia to be edited via WikiEdu's tools, and cuts WikiEdu users off from the concerns of Wikipedia's wider community (in effect censoring what messages get through to the WikiEdu users), it's a type of WP:OWN. Cabayi (talk) 16:17, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Really the dashboard needs to go both ways, in that anything on the wikipedia end is copied to the off-site project and vice versa. Its not really acceptable for an offsite dashboard to be in control of a wikipedia page and overwrite it regardless of what wikipedia editors have done in the meantime. Its a core tenet of wikipedia that communication is required *here* between editors. Not referring them to external websites. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:23, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Re. "... it's a type of WP:OWN" – that is indeed how I experienced it. So the question can be rephrased thus: do we allow https://dashboard.wikiedu.org/ to WP:OWN pages such as Wikipedia:Wiki Ed/University of North Carolina School of the Arts/History of Musical Styles I and II (Fall 2015, Spring 2016)? I, for one, can not remember ever having agreed to that, and suppose for instance Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval would be a place where such agreement can be negotiated. And indeed "two-way communication", as mentioned by Oiddde, would seem a minimal requirement for such approval to be possible. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:42, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

The idea with the dashboard on-wiki course pages, like Wikipedia:Wiki Ed/University of North Carolina School of the Arts/History of Musical Styles I and II (Fall 2015, Spring 2016), is that they provide an on-wiki mirror of the dashboard.wikiedu.org content, so that things like 'what links here' can be used to easily find out which editors are connected with which other editors through these courses. Two-way editing of those is not practical, because the content isn't structured the same way. Those are the only pages that the dashboard quote-unquote 'owns'.

In terms of approval process, the system itself went through the OAuth application approval process for the technical side of things, and there was a lot of (well-advertised) on-wiki discussion about the basic concept and using subpages of Wikipedia:Wiki Ed as, essentially, a replacement for EducationProgram extension that was the previous basis for course pages.

The dashboard does not allow arbitrary editing of other pages, and all the actual article editing, discussion, etc, still happens the usual way. --Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 17:16, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I had already understood that much. Your last words ("... discussion ... still happens the usual way") gloss over the fact that project to project (i.e. between "Wiki Ed" and "en.Wikipedia") communication is structurally near impossible, leading to frustration on both sides (frustration from Wiki Ed project participant's side is for instance documented here). So take the interface to Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval, which is about more than the mere technical approval, and for instance also about how the interface blends in with the English-language Wikipedia. I suppose it should be possible to send notifications about a relevant on-wiki discussion to the relevant page in the dashboard interface when a Wiki Ed project setup causes problems in the encyclopedia (like in the Wikipedia interface we get a notification with a clickable link when someone pings us or writes something on our talk page).

Several Wikipedia editors, including myself, posted suggestions for a smoother interaction (which ultimately should result in better mainspace content, and better learning curves for Wiki Ed project participants) for future Wiki Ed project setups. I wonder what has been done with those suggestions? (if your reply would be that you didn't see such suggestions, that is kind of a confirmation of my earlier point that the project-to-project communication has in practice proven near impossible). --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Francis Schonken: In general, adding more and better support for communication — such as notifying users on the dashboard about on-wiki communication they should know about — is definitely something I want to do at some point. I've thought a lot about this myself, and I've followed plenty of on-wiki discussion related to it. That said, I'm not sure what specific 'suggestions for smoother interaction' you're referring to here. I'm also not clear what you mean by "communication is structurally near impossible". The Wiki Ed system guides student editors to draft their work on-wiki, communicate about each others' work on-wiki, and interact with other editors on-wiki.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 19:14, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Re. "... at some point" – how about now? Re. "... on-wiki discussion related to it" – linking to some of these (if there are that provide insight) might be helpful.

Suggestions for smoother interaction / structural problems with project-to-project communication – apart from "see above" and "click on some of the links I gave above", here are some points I remember: there were some flaws in the setup of the North Carolina project mentioned above (leading to WP:CONTENT FORK problems etc.). Despite several efforts (by myself and others before me) we could not set up communication with the persons responsible for the project setup, in order to correct these flaws (the North Carolina professor...); Then there was the problem that almost all of the issues caused by the project showed up in a period of one or two days (on a few dozen pages), just before all of the South Carolina project editors disappeared from Wikipedia (a few remedies to avoid that in the future were proposed, e.g. timely publication of the due delivery date of the students' work on the project page; work from draft namespace instead of from user talk space; point students to guidelines that are specifically applicable for the topic area where they are going to edit; contact WikiProjects in the area where the editing is going to take place when setting up the project – instead of leaving the cleanup to Wiki editors when communication is no longer possible while everyone who was connected to the Wiki Ed project has left the building, etc...). --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:42, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Re. "The Wiki Ed system guides student editors to draft their work on-wiki, communicate about each others' work on-wiki, and interact with other editors on-wiki." Again, you're missing the (direct) project-to-project communication for addressing Wiki Ed project setup issues. Also, for the over two dozen pages I reviewed when cleaning up it was clear that either there had been no communication between the student and regular wikipedia editors (where such communication seemed indispensable), or, in the very few cases when there had been such communication, that communication was highly problematical (see student frustration link I gave above). So, whatever the interface was supposed to do in that respect, it wasn't working. --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:56, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Francis Schonken: Thanks. That cleared things up for me somewhat. The core issues, I think, are the same ones that have been the hardest ones for the education program all along: getting newcomers to engage in communication in the ways the Wikipedia community expects is hard. I think there are some ways that improvements to the dashboard can help — especially around facilitating on-wiki communication — but it will take a lot of design and development work to do that right. When you said "project-to-project communication", I at first was thinking in terms of communication between wikipedia.org and dashboard.wikiedu.org. But I think the problems you are pointing to are more fundamentally about how to get editors whose entry point to Wikipedia is the education program — instructors and students — to think and act like experienced editors. My view is that we've gotten a lot better at this over time, and the structure provided by the dashboard is a big part of that. Over the last year, we worked with significantly more classes and students than in previous years, with fewer of these kinds of communication problems. When such things do come up, and people post about them to Wikipedia:Education noticeboard/Incidents, we often find ways of improving the process — occasionally technical ways, but usually more along the lines of changes to our training content, our help materials, and our processes for vetting courses and monitoring courses.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 22:00, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Some points:

1. The "automatic welcome messages" BRFA was withdrawn after a comment that ended with "... Wiki Ed [...] looks like a separate organization and it wouldn't supersede anything on Wikipedia" – if the same is applied to the Wiki Ed project page updates that overwrite all the content on such Wikipedia project pages, this would become impossible by the same reasoning... So that functionality should be disabled immediately, then kept disabled until it passes a BRFA. I'd think (after an initial setup of the project page with the basic content of who is responsible, what the project is about, what the delivery dates are etc), that the talk page of such project page should be used to post incremental messages saying something like "the dashboard page of this edu project has been updated on <date>" (of course with a link to the related dashboard page).
2. The BRFA for the Dashboard should explicitly include all aspects of (semi-)automatic updating of pages in Wikipedia originating from the Dashboard system. Thus far we've had two: automatic welcome messages (disabled, BRFA withdrawn), and automatic updating of project pages (should immediately be disabled per WP:OWN, see above) – are there any other (semi-)automatic updating functionalities generated by WikiEdu programs we don't know about yet? If so, ask permission for them via BRFA.
3. Re. "getting newcomers to engage in communication..." – a quick fix that should at least alleviate some of the problems was proposed above: instruct the students that new articles are better started in Draft: namespace (and not in their user talk namespace where they are usually under the radar of Wikipedia communication until the content is transported to mainspace). Draft: namespace is monitored and students will get feedback, will often be pointed to WikiProjects that have experience in the topic area (leading to more communication), all of that long before the "due date" (which is typically the date when students move their new content to mainspace, after which they typically immediately stop editing Wikipedia). Rewrites/updates of articles that already exist in mainspace should likewise better be kept out of user talk namespace, and should take place directly in mainspace (or via update proposals on the article talk page), where of course there will be, in most cases, immediate feedback, and thus communication, too.
4. Re. "... — instructors and students — to think and act like experienced editors" – err? I think they should think & act like newbies (which gives extra protection per WP:BITE). A part of the problem now seems to be that instructors and students, after following the WikiEdu introduction course, think they behave like experienced editors (with the tinge of arrogance that comes with it – excuse my French), but act in ways that upset regular processes and procedures, and write questionable mainspace content (e.g. in a page on a Vivaldi composition they think it is necessary to write a full Vivaldi bio, instead of just linking Antonio Vivaldi, give an overview of the composer's work, his style and whatnot, writing maybe ten percent of the new article about the composition at hand – without a single reference) – all of which isn't helped when editing from a "I'm an experienced editor" attitude, instead of from "I'm new at this, could I get some assistance?" approach. At the end of the introduction program they should know they are still newbies, so need to keep in touch with more experienced editors to address all sorts of practical issues (e.g. how to add proper references).
5. Re. Wikipedia:Education noticeboard/Incidents – didn't know about that. How about providing a link to that page in the {{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment}} box? That box would be the first place a regular editor learns about a student's involvement, so they should know where to go when issues need to be sorted. Also, this helps for early "regulars"–"students" communication (assuming the /Incidents page is not for internal Wiki Ed communication exclusively).

All of this said, I will repeat what I said before: Wiki Ed is imho a great thing, that's why I think it is useful to take some time to hash out its issues. The program should give new editors some gusto for editing Wikipedia beyond their class assignment, which it currently only very rarely does: too often, currently, it ends in frustration, so let's do something about it. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:14, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Still another thought:

6. In the introduction for Wiki Ed instructors it should maybe made clear that the professors/teachers should not primarily expect to test a student's ability to write an essay via Wikipedia (there are more appropriate venues for that, within their institution): what they are really testing in a Wiki Ed setup is the student's ability to work together with people they don't know, within their field of interest. Are they able to learn from that interaction? This is future-minded: the idea of a single scholar working in his study surrounded by books, undisturbed by the outside world, is overhauled in a wiki setting where there is immediate feedback: how do students cope with such feedback without getting sidetracked? ...seems more like the thing that is tested in a Wikipedia setup (hence my suggestion above to keep prospective mainspace content out of user talk namespace staying under the communication radar). Which entails instructors being instructed how to read edit histories and talk pages (how did the student react to input by others? what did they learn from it in their topic area? did they manage to stay on topic? did they learn something about assessing on-line and paper reference works in a WP:RS approach?). Seems like a setting that will gain momentum in future approaches to research, so today's students would do well to prepare for it (e.g. distinguishing fake news from solid information based on source assessment & input from others is a hot topic nowadays: better learn students cutting edge approaches on how to do that than learn them to write essays old style, which their schools and universities are surely better equipped for).

--Francis Schonken (talk) 07:58, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

@Francis Schonken: If a single edit in the WikiEd interface leads to a single edit on Wikipedia, then that sounds like an alternative editing interface, not automatic editing. That's perfectly acceptable under the bot policy. It's when the WikiEd interface is set up to automatically edit with no oversight from the editor in question that we have issues. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 14:12, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Tx, the problem is, however, with the alternative interface not accepting feedback: i.e. it doesn't pass feedback on to the editor who accesses & edits Wikipedia through the alternative interface, that is, without logging in into Wikipedia. In that sense the Dashboard operates as a bot, churning out dozens (hundreds? thousands?) of Wikipedia edits blindfoldedly. We wouldn't accept any bot to do that: the bot would be blocked immediately, until it accepts feedback from human Wikipedia editors. Imagine being able to edit Wikipedia with AWB, without being notified of pings, user talk page messages, or whatever initiates normal in-wikipedia communication... That wouldn't last long I suppose, even if you would only make an edit in this way every few days.

For me it makes no difference whether this is approached as a "go through BRFA to get approval for this functionality", or whether, alternatively, we block all external-Dashboard-generated edits to pages for which the Dashboard claims ownership, because it goes against WP:OWN to let it continue this behaviour. The first approach does however seem to have the advantage to offer a way out. The second approach is fairly simple and straightforward: Dashboard can't own a page in Wikipedia, thus exclude it from operations on Wikipedia. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:42, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

The dashboard only makes edits on behalf of logged-in users. You must log in to Wikipedia in order to log in to dashboard.wikiedu.org, and we expect instructors to be responsive to problems that come up related to their courses. If you run into trouble with an unresponsive instructor, you can ping a Wiki Ed staff member and/or post to WP:ENI. The 'owned' dashboard pages on Wikipedia are a convenience for other editors to easily connect the dots with active courses. It would be easy to change the system such that it only posted essentially an initial version, and then made no further edits (so that it would never overwrite changes in the meantime), but that would defeat much of the purpose; it would just mean that the on-wiki page would not include up-to-date information about which users are doing what, and what the instructor's latest assignment plan is. I think I'll make some updates to the edit notice (Template:Editnotices/Group/Wikipedia:Wiki Ed) to make it more clear how to address problems (ie, contact the people involved rather than edit the automatically-updated course page). I'm not aware of any problems with these course pages for quite a while, though. The case you noted was more than a year ago.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 16:07, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

If you think the lack of talk page messages getting through/pings is an issue, you're welcome to start an RfC on it, Francis Schonken. I'm undecided (or possibly just apathetic) on that issue. It doesn't violate our bot policy, certainly, and I'm unaware of any other policy or guideline related to the issue you've identified. The editors making edits without access to feedback are responsible for their edits (including responding to feedback, as necessary), and they could be blocked if a lack of response to feedback becomes disruptive. There's nothing about the interface itself that crosses some bright-line in policy, though. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 22:10, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

The editors (who are brand new editors relying on experienced WikieEd instructors) should not be blocked for not giving response to feedback. The people responsible for encouraging new editors to edit through an interface which effectively disables the feedback from reaching these editors are the ones that should be blocked for it in such a case. Fram (talk) 08:01, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes and no: it is not my aim to get anyone blocked. Editors monitoring WikiEd processes, i.e. the ones with "(Wiki Ed)" in their username, are doing a great job. But, (1) they should seek permission if they want to override WP:OWN for specific pages, and (2) true, when they strive to get students and their educational instructors to get more engaged in wiki-interaction they might reflect that the way the Dashboard application is set up it rather works against such interaction, than that it supports such interaction. For these reasons I think it best that, unless the permission is obtained (which is in no way a case decided in advance), the Dashboard interface should be prevented to operate any edits to en.Wikipedia. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:43, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

@Francis Schonken: This only addresses one of your points above, but regarding the course pages/WP:OWN issues, the on-wiki course pages (the ones starting with Wikipedia:Wiki Ed/) are on-wiki copies of Dashboard-based course pages. Neither Wiki Ed staff nor students nor instructors have cause to use the on-wiki copies. They exist because we heard from members of the community that it might be useful to have an on-wiki record, even if they would only be that -- a record. The way we can keep those on-wiki copies up-to-date is by having the Dashboard automatically update it. That means any manual changes would be overridden, yes, but there's not actually any reason to edit it because, again, it's only a record -- changing it would create a discrepancy between the on-wiki and Dashboard (primary) version and the people who you would want to leave a message for there would not receive the message there anyway (again, instructors/students/staff don't typically use the on-wiki course page). Personally, I like having the on-wiki record, if for no other reason than to have an internal link to include in the article talk page template, but it's ultimately up to the community and if it could feasibly be discontinued if there's consensus to do so.

Segueing to another point (though my response on this is somewhat redundant), although instructors/students aren't going to receive messages left on the on-wiki course pages, the Dashboard is only used for course organization/planning/management purposes, and all editing is done through traditional editing interfaces. So a student shouldn't be any less likely to see a message/notification than any other new user (more likely, in fact, because we regularly remind them to engage with the community on talk pages, check for messages, etc.). I'd be happy to talk more about these issues on my talk page (or elsewhere). --Ryan (Wiki Ed) (talk) 17:26, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Let's keep the discussion here, please, I see no need to cut it up on several talk pages.

All of your explanations only confirm, in my eyes at least, that we should never have allowed edits to Wikipedia via the Dashboard interface. Why not use the Wikipedia WikiEd project page for updating the project status, and instead of copying that page from the Dashboard interface, copy the Wikipedia project page (semi-)automatically to the Dashboard website? --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:24, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

I don't understand this question. Have you used the Dashboard? If not, I'd recommend setting up your own test class/program on the Programs and Events Dashboard (outreachdashboard.wmflabs.org). It's a fork of the Wiki Ed Dashboard for programs beyond classes, so it won't create those Wiki Ed course pages, but it will give you a feel for why this suggestion doesn't make sense to me. The Dashboard is a piece of software for classes editing Wikipedia. No editing is done through the Dashboard -- it's where students go through training, add their assigned articles, where instructors can see an overview of student work, etc. The on-wiki course page is a brief, static information page. There is no static page to edit in the Dashboard, and its pages are automatically updated based on student/instructor activity. In short, it would be impossible to work the other way, and that's part of the reason why the Dashboard exists in the first place. Again, if you find there is consensus for your view that the Dashboard should not create these static information pages, we can certainly stop the practice, but while I know of others who like having them there, I've not seen others object. --Ryan (Wiki Ed) (talk) 10:20, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

I take the perspective of a Wikipedia editor. Which is by definition not knowing how Dashboard works. And not wanting that that external entity overwrites whatever suggestion I write on a Wiki Ed project page for a better interaction and less frustration. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:50, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Also, this line of defence makes the prospect for ever obtaining a permission to overwrite Wikipedia project pages even bleaker: above a Wikipedia admin defended Dashboard-to-Wikipedia edits while "a single edit in the WikiEd interface leads to a single edit on Wikipedia". Seems from the last explanation given by a Wiki Ed editor that that is not the case, while in the Dashboard "pages are automatically updated based on student/instructor activity", and then the overwrite is generated, blindfoldedly as I suggested above, without seeing what one is overwriting on a Wikipedia page. Not an acceptable process. AFAICS there's only one possible course of action: disable that Dashboard functionality immediately until a permission is granted to override Wikipedia policies for the particular case (BTW: a Wikipedia page that gets regularly updated is not a "static" page). Yes, the Wikipedia project needs to be informed about goings-on in Wiki Ed course projects that are affecting or going to affect Wikipedia content, so that information will need to be given by manual edits, and not by automatic overwrites, until if and when the automatic procedure may be accepted by Wikipedia(ns). What is even more needed than periodic one-way information about the goings-on of particular Wiki Ed courses, is the possibility to have, per Wiki Ed course, a forum where the course setup can be discussed to avoid annoyance (both from the course to Wikipedia as from Wikipedia to the course). Such page should probably best be organised Wikipedia-side, but with more responsibility from Wiki Ed side (including its initiators, instructors and students) to interact on that Wikipedia page to address unresolved issues. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:36, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Proposal regarding overwriting of Wikipedia project pages

The "replacement" of content of Wikipedia project pages as mentioned in the first paragraph of the Wiki Ed "editnotices" template is disallowed. This does not diminish the need for two-way communication between people operating individual Wiki Ed courses and Wikipedia editors interested in particular courses of this kind. Wikipedia project pages about such courses will become platforms for such communications: basic information about the course will continue to be posted on the Wikipedia course page, and course participants are by this platform notified of possible suggestions, questions and remarks by Wikipedia editors.

• Support as proposer. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:44, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Wiki Ed's preference for students to work in their user (talk) space

As already discussed in my suggestion No. 3 in the previous section, a quick fix for sound student-regular WP editor interaction would be to keep students out of their user space for drafting mainspace content. A violent (as opposed to sound) interaction is documented in progress here: a student's draft has been deleted from their user space, with admins quibbling (surely way over the newbie's head) whether the delete was opportune. That's not the welcome we want to give to newbie students, nor is this something where established Wikipedia editors (including admins) should devote that amount of time to. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:11, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Is this a suggestion that new student editors not work in their sandboxes before editing articles? Part of the point of doing that (not just for students) is that content is less likely to be deleted from userspace while new users get a handle on editing... --Ryan (Wiki Ed) (talk) 10:22, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

The main point is not the likeliness something can be deleted (this is a Wiki environment), but the soundness of the interaction. The in-progress example I linked to above illustrates a deletion under the cloud of a frustrating interaction. So snap out of the reasoning where "avoid deletion of whatever a student writes" is a goal in itself. If the student knows what they have to do better to make an edit stick, with admins addressing the needs of the student (instead of having a discussion over the student's head), then there is a useful interaction from which the student, Wikipedia and the Wiki Ed project benefit. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:50, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Proposal regarding preferred workspaces for Wiki Ed students

Both Wikipedia-side as Wiki Ed side interaction between Wiki Ed students and Wikipedia editors is promoted: that interaction is not helped by students working isolated from the wider Wikipedia editing community on prospected Wikipedia mainspace content in their user talk space ("sandbox" testing of the wiki editing mode is not affected by this). For this reason:

1. Students will create new proposed articles in Draft namespace;
2. If the work of the student is intended for an existing mainspace page, the student will work in mainspace and/or the talk page of the affected article.

• Support as proposer. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:44, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Other comments (Wiki Ed)

I'm uninvolved in the above incident(s), but I believe some of the discussions above would be better discussed in the wp:village pump rather than here. Gamebuster19901 (Talk║Contributions) 16:30, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Then we'd need to weigh the downside of not being in exactly the right spot (but which is the right spot?... WP:VPP? WP:VPT? WP:VPR? WP:VPM? Alternatively, User talk:Jimbo Wales?) against the downside of starting a WP:FORUMSHOP mid-discussion. I'd suggest to wait until the current thread is closed and/or archived before starting another discussion on the same topic in another place. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:55, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Over the last few months I've repeatedly seen different IPs adding what turn out to be false birth and death dates and places, examples including this or this. They do occasionally add correct ones, but most of the cases I've seen are wrong. They almost always use the article title as their edit summary. Unfortunately there are probably dozens of articles where they've done this (I spot them when they do it to Israeli politicians on my watchlist). Because it's from a different IP every time, blocking is pointless, but I was wondering whether some kind of edit filter could be put in place to identify them by their edit summary? Number 57 19:35, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Clarification Possibly I need to clarify – I think this is one particular editor using different IPs, not a complaint about IPs in general – the reason being the same edit summary being used every time. Number 57 22:34, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Number 57 - I think it stems farther than just birthdates. I see many changes made to death dates, ages, weights, heights, and other numbers like this. Edit summary wouldn't be too bad, but I believe that we have an edit filter that tags changes to birthdate, weight, and height already. It would be interesting to see one implemented that could detect edits made by non-comfirmed users that change only the numbers in a birthdate, date, age, weight, height, etc and add/remove nothing else (so... an editor that changes 2015-05-10 to 1990-05-10 only), and then warns/rejects knowing that no reference was provided. Problem is... I know it would probably cause a lot of false positives and trip-ups... :-/ ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:56, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

The issue is that most of the edits are not changing a birth or death date, but rather adding something that isn't true (a lot of the one's I've seen had only the year listed, to which they have added made up day and month details. For birth/death places they will add a town if only the country is listed, or add both town and country if the parameter is empty... Number 57 20:15, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

I've asked for this edit filter before, for the "cause of death" vandal. I don't think it was ever implemented. Black Kite (talk) 20:33, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

The IP is still at it... Number 57 21:11, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

• Non-admin comment - Is this happening on a specific set of articles? Is there anything connecting these edits or IP users to one another? DarkKnight2149 19:54, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
  • On the Israeli articles, it seems to be largely those born in Eastern Europe. Following their edits to other articles, Romanian people seem to be a focus too. Number 57 20:13, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
• PCR comment This is kinda normal latest is Mark Hamill. IPs are greater harm than good on BLPs and I would kinda like to put all hi-profile BLPs under indeff SEMI. Pending Changes doesn't solve the problem, as PCRs have to spend their time undoing unsourced additions/changes/deletions by hand. L3X1 (distant write) 22:04, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

It's sad to say, but I honestly wouldn't object to that. I think the same is usually true for IPs editing Featured Articles, and even many Good Articles. DarkKnight2149 15:43, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

I dunno, I sense it happens everywhere and all the time—I just reverted one 45 seconds ago at Carrie Underwood. El_C 22:55, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

That's what I was thinking when I asked my above question. I think more evidence is needed to suggest that these are connected incidents. DarkKnight2149 01:45, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

• IPs often change numbers in infoboxes, including heights/weights. I monitor some error tracking categories and need to deal with IP edits that break templates in infoboxes–not many in recent days, but usually there are a few each week, although I only see the changes that break certain templates. I don't worry about them anymore—if the WMF wants the encyclopedia to deteriorate who am I to object? After all, there are thousands of good editors who carefully monitor all edits to the over 5 million articles. It appears that some IPs have a hobby of changing numbers, perhaps to prove how unreliable Wikipedia is. Here is an extreme example. Johnuniq (talk) 04:10, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

I call it in my ES "#integermonkeying". It is a hard type of vandalism to detect, if its not blatant (Joe McNotable weighs 5000000 pounds, and Dallas yesterday had 2.3 million pop. but now has 93billion). Monkeying with revenues, sports scores, its a real pain to determine between updating and hooliganism. L3X1 (distant write) 01:59, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

• The IP is at it again today. Is there a way to identify this IP based on their edit summary (always the name of the article) and get a bot to do rollback on them? Number 57 16:31, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

You could ask the folks at Special Abuse Filter counter if its possible. L3X1 (distant write) 14:45, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Resolved

 – Illuminaati warned, then blocked.

"REPLY" I am stunned by the behavior Illuminaati (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). I almost just deleted my account and walked away from WP. It is unacceptable to me that he asks me to share my address "so that we can come and personally verify the legitimacy of your credentials!" Talk:Shakya (edit | article | history | links | watch | logs) That should be beyond acceptable limits for this community. I also do not like him characterizing me as "hell bent" on proving I am "an acclaimed scholar" or of "following a personal agenda" or "vendetta". He makes these repeated statements in the edit history and the Talk page. None of these assertions are supported by fact, and they are confounding in that they seem to characterize his actions, not mine. Moreover, he makes unwarranted claims that I have engaged in vandalism in the article Shakya (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). He continually reverts my edits and calls them "junk", despite the fact that I am making legitimate attempts to improve the article with citations to some of the most well-known scholars on the subject. I am pleased that when it comes to content, additional editors have reverted his deletions of most of my contributions. Will he attack them next? Scottahunt (talk) 18:53, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

NA com The "share address" comment possibly might be sarcasm, but this behavior is unacceptable. Illuminati appears to be an SPA or someone's sleeper. L3X1 (distant write)

Yeah, I think someone needs to take Illuminaati (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) aside and let them know this is not okay. --Tarage (talk) 20:00, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

I've warned them. Bishonen | talk 20:04, 24 March 2017 (UTC).

I will agree with whatever all contributors seem fair, but I am not going to back down to whatever Scottahunt's one sided intentions are. There has to be proper discussion on what he wants to add, what language to use and where it has to be added. I am okay with current version except the religion part where I believe a good discussion is worth. If I don't see a discussion happening on that topic in next few days, I am going to revert it back. So please don't come blaming me then.

Also I have never seen Scottahunt in past 10 years or so, his sudden and extreme interest in this article seems like he is an avatar of someone else.

@Greg Pandatshang, Joshua Jonathan, and Ogress: You can also join, and share your views Illuminaati (talk) 02:58, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Scott A. Hunt's REPLY: I just don't understand this incredibly emotional reaction to my involvement in this article. I am quite sad. I get along with everyone and enjoy collaboration. What began as a legitimate attempt by me to participate in a community of knowledge deteriorated into Illuminaati's harsh, unfounded accusations, and emotional reactivity. Not satisfied with undoing my contributions, he bullied by labelling them junk, said they didn't have citations, said I was a vandal, said I had one-sided intentions, said I have a personal vendetta, and did all this without ever engaging me in a genuine and civil discussion. Why not just discuss the merits? Why the labels and wild accusations? It doesn't even make sense. Nothing I have done warrants such treatment. And here's his latest message he just sent for me: "Well, Scottahunt you can go fish yourself ! Illuminaati (talk) 01:17, 25 March 2017 (UTC)" https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Illuminaati&action=edit&section=8 Apart from the amusement factor of his strategic use of the word fish, this too is unacceptable behavior. And for what? If his actions do not violate Wikipedia's rules, then this is not the community for me. But first, Illuminaati (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) please state your evidence that I have done anything malicious. Please state your evidence that I have "one sided intentions" and a "personal vendetta," and please explain why I would have a personal vendetta when I don't even know you. Please state your evidence that I committed vandalism. Please state your evidence that I said I was "an acclaimed Buddhist scholar." Please state your evidence that my contributions were "junk" and rather than properly cited content. Please state your evidence that I failed to provide citations. Please state your evidence substantiating that I'm an "avatar of someone else," and explain what you mean by that accusation (especially since you already have my REAL name and I have a User page). Please state your evidence that I have a "sudden and extreme interest" and state what you are alluding to with that statement. And please above all explain exactly what you meant by sharing my address to come in person to check my credentials, because while some may excuse it as mere "sarcasm" it is wholly unwarranted at best, and possibly worse. And when taken in context with all the other things you have done, it amounts to bullying and harassing. I don't understand why any of this happened, but it does not foster openness and inclusiveness. And by all means, whoever those people are that Illuminaati is rallying, I'm happy to have your opinions too. But as I understand Wikipedia, articles are not owned by one or a few people, but the entire community. So I invited comments and received supportive feedback that my contributions were not improper, irrelevant, or junk. I think more comments, even dozens or hundreds, would be great. If, however, you decide the article is not open to revisions, then it should be locked. Scottahunt (talk) 04:09, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

• In addition to his newest, unsubstantiated and unwarranted accusations and rude comments, Illuminaati says this: "And Scottahunt ! regarding threat, I guess you haven't heard the word Sarcasm. If I would want something like that then I would just track your IP address and its router hops (and don't worry proxies are not so trace-less as their sellers make you believe) that's more than enough the info anyone would need. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Illuminaati (talk • contribs) 01:12, 25 March 2017 (UTC) Illuminaati (talk) 01:15, 25 March 2017 (UTC)" This is not a place for sarcasm. It is not useful or helpful. And taken in context with his harsh words, it is plain to see it was malicious. When he first said he wants my address to come personally to see about my credentials, that was bullying not sarcasm. His insults continue. And then he adds specifically HOW he could find me. This is classic bullying behavior. And for what? To protect his vision of correctness? To stifle discussion? Or simply to be dominant? Administrator, are you following this? In any event, this is not a collaborative, open place to exchange knowledge so long as people like Illuminaati rule the day. Scottahunt (talk) 19:43, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Scottahunt I know you did not have any personal vendetta against me. I am after all faceless and name-less (technically!). I can be one person or many. I can even be you, who knows ! I personally think that you might have got snubbed by your Buddhist circle and you want to vent your frustration on this article. You say "Until 8 days ago, I was in holy Buddhist robes as a bhikkhu.... I had to give up holy robes to tend to family". It more sound like you got Fired and with nothing else to do, you turned to wikipedia to take your vengeance. Illuminaati (talk) 21:23, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Blocked for 1 week for personal attacks. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:12, 25 March 2017 (UTC)